With Sidney Crosby on the shelf for the duration with a high ankle sprain, the race for the Hart Trophy -- awarded to the regular season's most valuable player --- seemed to open up just a bit. Until, that was, Alex Ovechkin went on something of a tear and attracted everyone's attention with a four goal performance against the Canadiens in a 5-4 overtime win last week.
Last night, Ovechkin did it again, scoring twice in leading a Washington comeback from a 2-0 deficit to defeat Columbus 4-3 in OT. But while some might focus on the game winner he scored, it was Ovechkin's first goal that cut the lead to 2-1 that had my jaw dropping. Skating into the Columbus zone alone along the left wing, Ovechkin was without any visible means of support and facing four Blue Jackets. Unfortunately, they gave him just enough room to uncork a laser beam of a wrist shot that Blue Jackets goalie Pascal Leclaire simply had no answer for.
So, is the award in the bag for Ovechkin, or is there another player out there poised to snag the award away from the man who is leading the league in both goals and points? That was the question I put to my FanHouse colleagues this morning.
Jes Gölbez: Since I'm lazy, I'm just gonna cut and paste from my blog:
"Despite Ovechkin's defensive deficiencies, I'd still give him the MVP at this point of the season. Not only is he the dominant force in the game, but he has little help. Lecavalier and Alfredsson are great players, but look at their linemates! Ovechkin might as well be playing with the ghosts of Dane Jackson and Chris Tancill."
Kevin Schultz: I really don't think there's any doubt that it's AO at this point. Like Jes said, he doesn't have much help and I think that five point night last week was one of those games that we'll be able to look at later and use to justify any and all of our praise for him.
I like Lidstrom, and he's a heck of a player, but when we're talking about getting help from your teammates he's the poster boy for that. The same goes for Vinny and Alfredsson, but on slightly lower level.
I think the only people who can touch AO are Kovalchuk and Iginla. I say Kovy because he's in a pretty similar situation, but how he has 65 points and is a -14 is beyond me. Iginla is the only serious contender at this point, because he means almost as much to the Flames as AO means to the Caps.
Earl Sleek: Yeah, I won't put up a big fuss if Ovechkin wins it (I usually don't care that much about the popular Hart), but I'd have Lidstrom right up there with him, if not ahead. I understand that he plays on a great team, but this Red Wings team isn't just the best team we'll see this season, it's pretty much the best we've seen since the lockout (and probably even a few years before and to come, I'd guess).
Detroit's always been a monster in the standings, but in the past couple of years it's largely been at the expense of the weak-sister Central (DET has taken 104 standings points in 64 games over the last two years from those four teams). This year, they're beating everybody every night. Against the Northwest and Pacific this season, they are a whopping 28-1-2, outscoring opponents 111-55. That's astounding.
And they've done it without a lot of mainstays: they don't really have a consistent #1 goaltender, and they've done it with injuries in key parts to their lineup. Obviously it's a well-working machine with a lot of contributors, but I think I'd give the nod to what looks to be a historic season, and the key part of that is and always has been Lidstrom.
There's plenty to be said about his counting numbers, his nightly opposition, and his team's shot discrepancies, but maybe the selling point that seems to win me over: every defense partner he's ever had ends up looking like a puck genius.
So I'm sure there's plenty to be said back in Ovechkin's favor, and certainly it's a different lineup, but in the end--OV if he makes the postseason will be scratching in as many teams have done many times before; Lidstrom right now is leading a team to historic domination, in an era with an emphasis on parity. I'm on board with Nik.
Jon "J.P." Press: I know that +/- doesn't tell the whole story about a player's defense, but at +12 and with the 6th-most hits of any forward, the 10th-most takeaways in the League and the 55th most blocked shots of any forward, Ovechkin really shouldn't have to listen to "defensive deficiencies" talk much more. He's 88th in the League in Goals Against On Ice/60 Minutes behind guys like Kovalchuk, Lecavalier, Eric Staal, Briere, Hossa, Alfredsson, Demitra, Spezza, Hemsky, Vanek and Jokinen.He's a complete player - lose the stereotypes and pre-conceived notions to the contrary.
Oh, and Nicklas Backstrom is a bit better than the ghost of Chris Tancill.
Jes Golbez: 88th out of how many players? Is that really something to be proud of? :)
Caps fans - still the most sensitive fans in all of hockey.
John "J.P." Press: Apologies if "stats" and "facts" come across as "sensitive."
And it's not so much the 88th that is the point of pride, but the comparison to those other guys, some of whose defense is never questioned.
Greg Wyshynski: Kovalchuk is 17 points better than the next leading scorer on Atlanta and plays the same kind of dominant, feisty game the Ovechkin plays. You want something for the MVP debate? Hows about Kovy's 14 goals and 23 points in November, helping the Thrashers climb out of the grave and back into the conversation?
He's a punk, sure; but there's no denying he's had an MVP season for a team of turmoil.
By and by the way: No love for ConkBlock?
John "J.P." Press: Same kind of dominant, feisty game? Is that why Ovechkin has six times as many hits (146 to 25) and half as many PIMs?
Alex has more than 15% more goals than Kovalchuk, who's second in the League and more than 36% more than third place Iginla. Kovalchuk has less than half as many game-winners as Ovechkin (who is tied for the League lead in game-winners and OT goals), and, as noted earlier, only plays one end of the ice. Sure, he helped the Thrashers out of a hole when they were 0-6-0, but it's less impressive than the Mrs. Golbez's vajayjay-sized hole out of which Alex has led the Caps after their 6-14-1 start.
I guess you can talk about Kovalchuk, but as there isn't a single area in which he's having a better season than Ovechkin (except, perhaps, suspensions avoided due to superstar status), I'm not sure why you'd bother.
Greg Wyshynski: So are you just going to discount what Kovalchuk did for Atlanta when it was in the crapper? Atlanta was 4-9; Kovy goes on a tear and suddenly they're 11-10 and back in contention. It's pretty cut and dry.
We can compare the overall virtues of the two players, but it's a moot point, Japers: You and I both know Ovechkin is the better player in nearly every aspect. But I think your discounting of Kovalchuk's season and importance to Atlanta's reversal of fortune is coming from a position of generally loathing the guy -- one step up from looking at Ovechkin's first few years in the league and assuming he still doesn't play defense.
James Mirtle: Ovechkin's actually be surprisingly okay defensively. And his offence more than makes up for any goals that go in. Ovechkin's problem is that his team probably needs to make the playoffs for him to win over Lidstrom -- Lemieux is the only player to have won the MVP on a non-playoff team in the last 41 years and he won the scoring race by about 20 points.
Iginla's probably in fourth right now. Kovalchuk's been awful defensively -- he's not even in the conversation, I don't think. I'd pick Zetterberg over him at this point.
John "J.P." Press: I actually happen to love Kovalchuk. He's been a pillar of my back-to-back fantasy hockey championships (along with Brodeur and Iginla... viva la Crapitals!).
And I'm not discounting what he's done for the team. Good on him for getting a defending division champ that lost no one back to .500.
Earl Sleek: Bah, I'm still not sold [on Ovechkin]. I mean, I guess if we have to limit Hart votes to teams on the playoff fringe (which may be true), Ovechkin's the best of that lot. But we shouldn't really discount the fact that he's playing in the weakest division in the higher-scoring conference.
Behind the Net (min GP 10, min TOI 10) has Lidstrom facing the 10th best 5-on-5 competition (5th among defensemen) and getting the 3rd highest plus-minus-per-hour (1st among defensemen). It is unreal.
Greg makes a good point about historical Harts not going to defensemen and goalies, but frankly, that's just an explanation as to why they won't win, not why they don't deserve to win. Detroit's by far the best team of this year (and several years), and it's pretty clear who's their MVP.
So I guess if I had to predict the Hart, I'd say Ovechkin. But if you ask me who deserves it, I don't know how I could not say Lidstrom. He's a cut above any other defenseman to a greater degree than I'd say OV is a head above any other forward.
James Mirtle: Heh, Earl, my votes for Lidstrom too, but I'm sort of banking on Ovechkin not getting 70 goals this season.
If he does that, well, no one's had 60 in 12 years. I think you can make an argument a 68 goal season this year is one of the best statistical outputs in history.
Greg Wyshynski: I love the idea that we should penalize Kovalchuk for his team not losing anyone (you know, besides Mellanby, its most important veteran leader) but we should all worship at the skates of Lidstrom despite the fact that the Red Wings landed perhaps the most prized defenseman on the free agent market (Rafalski).
And if being a dynamic two-way player was the prerequisite for winning the Hart ... Jesus, look at the list ...
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
2-06-2008 @ 2:15PM
S8 G88D said...
I love how my home town capitals blogger absolutely CRUSHED this argument. Id also like to thank AO for being an amazing freak of nature, the best hockey player in the world and the mvp of the league. Id also like to recognize mrs. golbez for retaining the crown of "worst fanhouse blogger by a mile and all-around hack".
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2-06-2008 @ 3:32PM
Heather B. said...
You guys forgot to mention that Alexander Ovechkin has MORE FUN PLAYING HOCKEY THAN ANYONE ELSE EVER IN THE HISTORY OF HOCKEY!
Ovechkin is amazing, of course, but he's picked up ground in the goals and points race while the two players who were behind him have been out with injuries. He and Kovalchuk also have the advantage of playing a huge number of games against one of the worst divisions in pro sports.
I'm chalking this up as a win for Earl who made me feel like it might be kind of embarrassing if someone not named "Lidstrom" wins.
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2-06-2008 @ 4:06PM
Earl Sleek said...
A win for Earl? Sweet. If it adds any credence to my Hart musings, I guess I should add that I'm not by any means a Detroit fan. Pretty much my favorite thing about the Red Wings is eliminating them from the playoffs.
That said, I watch a pitifully low amount of eastern games, so I do carry a bit of a western bias, at least in the games that I'm watching.
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2-06-2008 @ 5:45PM
Heather B. said...
Also, because I missed this the first time around:
"Sure, he helped the Thrashers out of a hole when they were 0-6-0, but it's less impressive than the Mrs. Golbez's vajayjay-sized hole out of which Alex has led the Caps after their 6-14-1 start."
I'm assuming that's supposed to be funny but I don't know, I'm gonna have to go with tacky and immature. Tough to take an argument seriously with that kind of junk thrown in the middle of it at least for me.
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2-06-2008 @ 7:09PM
HabsFan29 said...
Not even close. As someone who was on the wrong end of the AO 5, Habs 4 score, there is no question in my mind.
And my god, a Russian FORWARD who is among the league leaders in hits. AND leads his (mediocre) team in +/-
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2-06-2008 @ 7:59PM
RespectTheVajayjay said...
Boys, boys, settle down. All of these players are great! And if it makes you feel better, just remember, ALL of your favorite players climbed out of vajayjay-sized holes, okay? No need to get nasty about things.
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2-06-2008 @ 8:38PM
Greg Wyshynski said...
Sidney Crosby was not born from a vajayjay-sized hole. Jesus hatched him from an egg. C'mon, common knowledge...
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2-06-2008 @ 11:49PM
Matt Saler said...
Thanks for that, Earl.
To the others, I have the say that the argument that Lidstrom isn't MVP-worthy because he has a bunch of good teammates is a big steaming pile of BS. That's the same as saying he's the posterboy of overrated players and no one that has watched him play one shift could say that and still be in their right mind.
Lidstrom is the real deal and will go down as one of the best defensemen in history and certainly the best of his generation. So give him the Norris again, right? Yes, but he deserves the Hart, too.
Early on in the season, when Zetterberg was tearing it up, I thought he was the MVP (at least of the Wings). And then he went down and the Wings didn't really miss a step. So, that pretty much ended the Hank-for-Hart discussion in my mind (and he's my favorite player). The same goes with Datsyuk, though he's not as injury-prone, so he doesn't miss a lot of time. Losing both would suck badly, but not, I think, as badly as would losing Lidstrom.
It's been the received wisdom in Detroit for years that the team would be up the creek without a paddle were Lidstrom to go down with an injury. When news breaks that an "unnamed player" has been hurt and there is even a hint that it's Nick, the fanbase freaks out.
The miracle is that of the few games he has missed over the years, the majority have been "rest" games at the end of the season. Very few have been due to injury. So, we don't really know what a Lidstrom-less Red Wings team would look like, but it's the great fear.
He's simply the team's rock, an unchanging force, the point around which the team rallies. I've noticed that the team defends him just as much as, if not more than, they did Yzerman. They didn't just give him the "C" instead of say, Zetterberg, strictly out of respect for his veteran status. They gave it to him because he's the heart of the team now that The Captain is gone.
A lot of teams have hearts that do not deserve the Hart. What sets Nick apart is he's a fricking hockey machine. On the rare nights in which he makes a mistake (a missed poke-check, a rush not perfectly headed off by pure positioning, or even an own-goal), it invariably comes as a shock. It's not "Oh well, he just had an off night." It's "Oh no! I wonder if he's hurt! He seemed to be favoring his right hand on that one play..." Except for those rare games or shifts, he's as close to perfect as a hockey player can get. Take it from someone who watches the guy every night (and I'm one of those fans who's quick to criticize every little thing).
Greg can hold Rafalski against Lidstrom all he wants, but the fact is the ex-Devil is a turnover machine. Sure, he racks up the assists and is a great passer, but on the flip side, he's good for at least three awful turnovers a game. His defensive zone coverage is lacking as well.
Kronwall has similar turnover problems, but his puck handling ability at the blueline is incredible.
Lilja - well, I'm not as hard on him as some fans are, but let's just say he's not the world's greatest puck-carrying defenseman. He's a great penalty killer, though.
Lebda has wheels in something of the Paul Coffey mode, but he doesn't make up for his size disadvantage all that well.
Chelios is Chelios and is therefore invaluable.
Put those guys together and, for all their faults, you have a solid defense, but one without a clear leader. Add Lidstrom to the mix and you have a defense with a focal point.
Lidstrom is the guy that holds the Detroit blueline together.
There is a lot to Mike Babcock's argument that Nick's defensive partners have career years the first time they're paired with him.
If you want an extreme example here you go: my final impressions of Larry Murphy were that he was a rock solid, if slow, defenseman. Tell that to fans in Toronto, among other places, and I'd be considered a lunatic. Whatever Larry's faults before he came to Detroit, Lidstrom made him look like a genius acquisition by the team. And that was over 10 years ago.
In Detroit (and in various other cities, obviously), the blueline is the key to the whole thing. It is behind Hasek or Osgood that the puck possession game begins and the up-ice passes of Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, and Chelios in particular drive the offense.
If Lidstrom is the key to the defense and the defense is the key to the Wings' game and the Wings are a country mile ahead of the rest of the League, how can the guy not be the MVP?
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2-07-2008 @ 7:47AM
Greg Wyshynski said...
All due repsect Matt, but take Lidstrom off the Wings and what are they? 10 points ahead in the West? Five points?
Take Ovechkin off the Capitals, and they're an ECHL team as soon as Semin loses his smile.
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2-07-2008 @ 9:13AM
Jes Golbez said...
Greg, under that scenario, the MVP award becomes a team award and not a PLAYER award.
The BEST player, no matter how strong his team is, is always the most valuable.
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2-07-2008 @ 9:37AM
Greg Wyshynski said...
Jes, you made this argument yesterday, and I still don't understand it.
"The Hart Memorial Trophy is an annual award given to the player judged to be the most valuable to his team." That's what the NHL says. Is the best player in the League based on the numbers always the most valuable? Of course not, even if that's how some of the voters treat the award (not only in hockey, but in other sports). Jagr had better numbers a few years back, but Sakic deserved the Hart for the Avs.
There's a difference between playing the "Take Player X off of Team Y" game and critically looking at where a team would be without that player in a certain season. The Wings are the Wings because of Lidstrom, no doubt. But they're not in the lottery without him. The Capitals would be without Ovechkin, ditto Atlanta minus Kovalchuk and, this season, Calgary minus Iggy.
You simply can't divorce the status of the team from the Hart Trophy, because "team" is right there in the rationale for the award.
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2-07-2008 @ 1:24PM
Dave said...
Love the 'loses his smile' line, Greg.
The race for the Hart has been open all season, it's not like Sid had it locked up before he went down. Until Ovechkin decided to hulk up and start scoring basically every night, this would have been a great year to give Lidstrom the Hart - sort of a 'lifetime achievement' type thing. He certainly deserves it. But I think that Ovechkin's counting numbers will end up way too gaudy for voters to ignore.
As for what you two have been arguing the past few comments about - how much more valuable can you be than being the best player? You can't. If you are the best player in the league, you cannot possibly be any more valuable to your team than that. Individual awards really should have team standing separated from it because it's not any one individuals fault if the rest of his team sucks. But if you're the best player, how can you be more valuable than that?
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2-07-2008 @ 3:22PM
Greg Wyshynski said...
Again, it comes back to the team. If Vinny leads the league in scoring and Ovechkin is two points back, Vinny's the best player in the league, right? But he's got St. Louis, Prospel, Richards, Boyle yadda yadda. Take him off that team, and there's still something there.
Like I said: Take Ovechkin off the Capitals, and it's an entirely different story.
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2-07-2008 @ 3:28PM
James said...
I'm not going to put up a fight on Lidstrom. Comparing a veteran hall of fame defensemen on a virtual all-star team to a 22 year old goal scoring tazmanian devil is pretty much impossible. Some people will favor Lidstrom, buoyed by his greatest player on greatest team status. Others will favor Ovechkin for his offense he creates, his flash, and his charisma that has lifted a perennial cellar dweller to division lead and respectability. You can go either way.
But to consider anyone other than Oveckin among skaters is utterly absurd. And let's dispel with two myths right off the bat. J.P. sufficiently throttled the defensive deficiency argument. Here's the other (see Earl Sleek above for this sort of reference):
"If Oveckin's numbers weren't boosted by playing in the worst division, he wouldn't be so impressive."
WRONG.
Ovechkin scores more outside his division than inside. Period. He's probably responsible for a dozen Canadian suicides just based on what he's done to teams from north of the border alone. Here are the numbers:
In Division: 19 games, 13 goals (.68 gpg), 22 points (1.16 ppg), -1 +/-
Out of Division: 35 games, 32 goals (.91 gpg), 50 points (1.43 ppg), +13 +/-
Vs. Canada alone: 13 games, 17 goals (1.3 gpg), 27 points (2.08 ppg), +9 +/-
It ain't the division, folks. He's 1 or 1a for the Hart this year.
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2-07-2008 @ 3:35PM
Jes Golbez said...
Greg,
Let's me say it again: THE BEST PLAYER IS ALWAYS THE MOST VALUABLE.
You are taking that and spinning into 'the guy who gets the most points'. BS. I don't know how anyone can justify the fact that the second or third best player in any league is the most valuable player.
I must say this again and again
---
Say you have two piles.
Pile 1: a bunch of slate pebbles, and a 12-karat diamond.
Pile 2: A bunch of 4-karat diamonds, and a 10-karat diamond.
Obviously, Pile 2 will be more valuable in total, but the 12-karat diamond is still the most valuable diamond of them all, no matter which pile it is in.
---
We seem to agree on the basic point that Lecavalier has more help than Ovechkin. Swap Lecavalier for Ovechkin, and you'd likely not see Prince Vince with the same totals.
That said, the MVP should not be awarded simply to a great player on a poor team. That just makes the MVP a team award, rather than an individual award.
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2-07-2008 @ 3:37PM
Jes Golbez said...
"J.P. sufficiently throttled the defensive deficiency "
How so? Yes, we see that there are other forwards (like Alfredsson) who are less efficient and don't get called out for it. Yes, Ovechkin isn't as bad as I thought.
Still, he's in the bottom third/fourth/fifth of all NHLers, which still means he is weak in that area. OF course, I'll take all of the offensive benefit for that deficiency.
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2-07-2008 @ 3:52PM
James said...
"Still, he's in the bottom third/fourth/fifth of all NHLers"
Wrong. He's in the bottom third/fourth/fifth of all NHLers in GAA/60min, a stat which is helpful to an extent. But it goes without saying that a relentlessly offensive player will make certain concessions on defense. You can't win the Selke and the Rocket Richard in the same season. It's just not possible. But making tactical choices does not equate to deficiency. Compare Ovechkin to his peers -- forwards who take a lot of shots -- and see how he stacks up. There's no point in putting Ovechkin on a list with Kris Draper and Rod Brind'amour. Fact is, he hits and hits smartly (huge hit totals, low PIMs), blocks a lot of shots for a star player, and is incredibly good at taking the puck away from opponents. Look at those numbers that he puts up while still being the best offensive player in the world, and then imagine what he would look like if he decided to focus on nothing but those defensive stats. That's the point.
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2-07-2008 @ 4:25PM
Earl Sleek said...
"(see Earl Sleek above for this sort of reference)... WRONG. It ain't the division, folks. He's 1 or 1a for the Hart this year."
Well, since I'm called out for something I barely referenced, let me defend it. My main point was about him playing in the east, which is clearly the more goal-friendly conference (there's been 166 more GA in the east than the west). Whether you want to get specific about what division he scores against, that's fine. I mostly brought up the weak Southeast since it was conceded he'd need to make the playoffs to get the Hart, and that seems to be the easiest division to qualify for the postseason.
Even so, I took a look at his splits. Ovechkin's scored 2/3 of his goals against the Southeast and Northeast divisions -- coincidentally the two divisions with the highest combined GAAs.
I'm not saying that Ovechkin won't have an impressive goal count at the end of the year, but you should consider he's been placed in about the easiest place to accomplish such a feat. I'd like to see him try to duplicate it playing for a western team; it's a much tougher conference for that style of play. 3 of the top 5 goal scorers come from the Southeast Division this season, yet it's pretty widely recognized to be the worst of the six. So I guess my point was, let's take these things into consideration. Is that so wrong?
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2-07-2008 @ 5:37PM
Mike at MHH said...
But does the SE and NE have the most GAA because they see Ovechkin scoring tons of goals, or does Ovechkin score tons of goals because he sees a lot of the SE and NE?
Little chicken vs. egg there don't you think?
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2-07-2008 @ 5:37PM
James said...
"Even so, I took a look at his splits. Ovechkin's scored 2/3 of his goals against the Southeast and Northeast divisions -- coincidentally the two divisions with the highest combined GAAs."
Well, I mean, that's not all that shocking. 54.5% of his games are against the Southeast and Northeast divisions. It's not as if just because 2/3 of his goals have come against 2/6 of the NHL divisions that therefore 2/3 of his goals have come in 2/6 of his games. I'll concede that he has done very well vs. the Northeast and not as well against the Atlantic, but this isn't some huge gap.
"3 of the top 5 goal scorers come from the Southeast Division this season, yet it's pretty widely recognized to be the worst of the six. So I guess my point was, let's take these things into consideration. Is that so wrong?"
Let's also take into consideration that all 3 were #1 overall picks. The next best southeast goal scorer is ranked 11th (Staal, 2rd overall draft pick). After that, it's Jokinen at 13th (3rd overall pick). Also, Heatley is 14th (2nd overall pick, traded out of southeast). The southeast, largely a product of their teams sucking spectacularly when they don't randomly win Stanley Cups, has a huge volume of star power coming out of its farm systems. In fact, you have to go Hossa at T-19 for the first SE division player on the goal chart who wasn't a top 3 pick.
Back to Ovechkin, the western conference presents sample size issues, but he does have 5 goals and 4 assists in 6 games against the west. So, once again, his numbers vs. the West are decisively better than against his own division, and pretty much identical to his non-division eastern conference numbers. Could he match those numbers over 70 games? I don't know. But I don't really see any evidence to say he can't come close. He has 19 goals in 26 career games vs. the West. That's a 60 goal/season pace.
Clearly, Kovalchuk and Lecavalier have feasted on the SE division this year and been less productive than normal in limited action vs. the West, but should other guys' shortcomings influence your views on Ovechkin? Seems overly assumptive.
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