After the steroid hearing, Roger Clemens received a lot of grief for claiming that Andy Pettitte "misrembered" things or that how dare he say that Pettitte was lying. Though Pettitte's affidavit seemed pretty unequivocal, as Will Carroll notes at Baseball Prospectus, his deposition did have a lot more wiggle room in it.On page 20 of the Pettitte deposition, he discusses the conversation where he says that Clemens told him that he was using HGH. He says he remembers few details about the conversation.
Then on page 28 of his deposition Pettitte says:
"I'm saying that I was under the impression that he told me he had taken it [HGH]. And then when Roger told me that he didn't take it, and I misunderstood him, I took it for that, that I misunderstood him."
On page 91 of his deposition, Pettitte states:
"I don't think I misunderstood him....But then, 6 years later when he told me that I did misunderstand him, you know, since '05 to this day, you know, I kind of felt that I might have misunderstood him."
Adversarial proceedings, even when everyone claims that is not what they are supposed to be, are terrible ways to try to find "the truth." Nobody at that hearing was really interested in "the truth."
Rather, they were more interested in grinding axes, hoping not to go to perjure jail, grandstanding, mangling Jose Canseco's name, praying for a Perry Mason moment of confession, reminding people they are under oath, blahditty blah blah blah.
The truth is a subtle weird thing. "Subtle" in that people remember things selectively, from their world view, and from memories tending to fade over time. You know, the old Rashomon cliche. "Weird" in that if you wrote some real life stuff up as fiction, nobody would find it believable.
I'm not inclined to buy what Roger Clemens is selling. That being said, it is perfectly possible that Pettitte misunderstood Clemens in 1999. Then, at the time, told McNamee and wife about what he thought he heard. Later, when they are talking in 2005, and Pettitte asks what they are going to tell reporters about HGH use, Clemens then mentions his wife's use. Clemens doesn't realize what conversation Pettitte is talking about, and assumes that he previously told Pettitte about the 2003 use of HGH by Clemens' wife.
As I said, I'm not particularly believing that, but at the same time, Pettitte remembers little about the 1999 conversation and later says he might have misunderstood Clemens. So though the general media consensus is that Pettitte sunk Clemens, I believe a lot of that is based on just the emphasis of the Pettitte affidavit during the hearings, and people not reading his deposition.
Clemens may not have appeared convincing trying to explain it, but I can't think of anyone, no matter how bright or articulate, who looks comfortable in Congressional hearings when they know people think they are lying and want perjury charges filed. I will say that the Clemens body language analysis stuff is complete story overkill and garbage.
(via Off the Kuff)
Previously at FanHouse:
Pettitte Thinks McNamee Is Credible
Lost in the Shuffle: Pettitte Admitted to Lying
Clemens Hearing Report Card: Andy Pettitte
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Reader Comments ( Page 1 of 1)
1. Clemens planted the seed of "you might have misunderstood want I said". Sorry, but Pettitte is just giving his friend an out. Pettitte said he did not want toargue about it with Roger so he said "ok,maybe I did ". Roger is lying. Read McNamee's 235 page deposition.Some interesting details not talked about at the hearing. Roger's nickname is "Eli".
His teammates have been calling him that for years. Why ? because every time his moves his lips he lies. He is a bigtime embellisher and liar...has been forever.
Posted at 9:42PM on Feb 15th 2008 by Steve
2. I read both McNamee's 235 page depo and Pettitte's 104 page depo. Very interesting stuff. Pettitte employed McNamee after Roger retired and considered him a friend. Pettitte stated that he believed everything McNamee said was true. McNamee did inject Pettitte with HGH but advised him not to take HGH initially. Pettitte persisted and McNamee complied. Clemens also employed McNamee as a"personal" trainer. Ha asked him to inject him with roids and HGH. He also asked him to inject his wife. This was to provide an "out" by telling Pettitte that McNamee injected his wife and not him. McNamee gives all the details of injecting Mrs. Clemens upon Roger's request.
Posted at 9:53PM on Feb 15th 2008 by SC
3. stephanie...I also read the depositions and it is pretty obvious that Pettitte just did not want to confront Roger about his statement that he took PEDs. Roger was just trying to cover his tail. Some medical people say that HGH only works if it is taken in conjunction with steriods. that is why it did not help Knoblauch or Pettitte as they did not take any roids like Clemens did.
Posted at 10:05PM on Feb 15th 2008 by Sam
4. Steve, SC, Sam-
You make some interesting points. I read McNamee's deposition too, and I have to say I believe neither Clemens or McNamee completely.
I'm afraid we will never have a smoking gun to this, and any further money spent on this by the government will be a big fat waste on money.
I will say however, I think it is hysterical that you are slamming Roger Clemens for being less than truthful. You just sent three comments to this blog entry slamming Clemens signed with three different names, but all coming from the same email address.
Why did you feel compelled to make it look like three different people were writing comments to this blog post? That's not terribly truthful either. Just sayin'
Thanks for reading and really wanting to comment,
Steph
Posted at 9:25AM on Feb 16th 2008 by Stephanie Stradley
5. What difference does it make? Bush will pardon Clemens. That's quite a status symbol and a joke at the same time...
Posted at 1:55PM on Feb 16th 2008 by Ronald
6. Stephanie, let me guess. You're a Yankee fan. Because up to now, it's primarily Yankee fans who still believe in Clemens' tooth fairy story.
And in Pettitte's deposition, he also states that McNamee told him around 2003-2004 that Clemens did steroids. I suppose Pettitte misheard or misunderstood that one too?
Yes they've spent a lot of money on this and they should continue to do so because it is no longer about PEDs usage, but about lying to federal investigators. And I believe the syringes and needles will provide a smoking gun, despite unsuccessful attempts by Hardin to discredit that evidence. It will nail Clemens' lying, cheating ass to the wall.
Posted at 1:55PM on Feb 16th 2008 by CaseyEKIM
7. CaseyEKIM,
For the record, I'm not a Yankee fan. At all. Ew. I'm just a fan of not spending my tax money on stupid investigations. I'm also a fan of cutting through hype. They hype says Pettitte sunk Clemens, and I'm not sure of that.
I also said repeatedly in my entry that I don't particularly believe Clemens, but that the main stream media's discussion of these events has been incomplete.
Yes, Pettitte said that McNamee told him in 2003-04 about Clemens steroids use. Interestingly, it was in the context of McNamee being angry at Clemens for wanting to paid for a product endorsement. And after McNamee earlier preached being quiet about these sorts of subjects.
The syringes and needles won't say anything at all. Clemens says that McNamee shot him up. So his DNA would be on it. If McNamee wanted to doctor up some evidence for some bad future purpose like blackmail, it would be easy to do.
I'm not saying that happened, rather everything has a possible explanation.
McNamee is an admitted liar and his his physical evidence is not likely going to be a slam dunk either. So millions will be spent trying to nail Clemens to the wall when none of the evidence is likely to be unequivocal.
It just seems like a waste of money to me. But maybe not for those of you who hate Clemens so much that they want tons of taxpayer money spent on further investigations.
Thanks for reading and commenting,
Steph
Posted at 2:07PM on Feb 16th 2008 by Stephanie Stradley
8. I'm another of the ones who think having Congress involved is WASTE of tax payer dollars. I'm a certified Yankee hater and wouldnt trust Clemons to speak the truth in any situation. Congress should just revoke MLB's anti trust exemption and then go back to doing THEIR jobs. Leave the baseball players to the MLB, the fans and such.
Posted at 2:56PM on Feb 16th 2008 by S321
9. These thugs denied honest farm system players from making the big league possibly costing the honest players millions of dollars. Steinbrenner, Joe "Look The Other Way" Torre knew this. The Yankees should forfeit their titles and return their World Series Rings during the Torre scandal.
Posted at 10:19PM on Feb 17th 2008 by Weedster
10. If the Tigers win the world series this year and all major league players say the denounce all illegal drugs and promise not to touch another illegal substance,I will forgive every single one of these guys and we can start all over again. Would that be ok with every one?
Posted at 8:37AM on Feb 18th 2008 by John
11. Stephanie, my sons Sam and Steve did also posted off our family computer...but we know Roger is lying...my nephew played MLB for over 10 years with 3 major league teams...one the Red Sox...he says Clemens is lying ..sadly 100-200 other players are also guilty..Clemens also admitted on 60 minutes that he took "greenies" like he was eating skittles...kinda blows his line that his body is a temple and he would never use PEDs
Posted at 8:37AM on Feb 18th 2008 by SC
12. Stephanie.... Senator Mitchell obviously believes McNamee's story...Pettitte confirms it...my friend's husband pitched for the Red Sox and he says Roger is lying...therefore so is the end of your "smoking gun" for me anyway
Posted at 9:13AM on Feb 18th 2008 by Katherine
13. Stephanie...as to your "body language" comment...ask any professional poker player( mucho TV shows today) and they will tell you reading "tells" and body language is the single most important advantage to winning in poker
Posted at 9:14AM on Feb 18th 2008 by Steve
14. SC-
Your sons? I believe you as much as I believe Clemens, which is not much at all. This morning you also just posted from the same email address anti-Clemens stuff from "Katherine" and "Steve" within one minute of each other.
So basically 6 comments to just this one blog entry all come from your computer. "Let me pretend to be different people to trash Clemens for being a liar." Hilarious.
Thanks for reading and commenting.
-Steph
Posted at 9:21AM on Feb 18th 2008 by Stephanie Stradley
15. Steph...SC is Steve Jr., Katherine is my wife...we have been to almost every baseball park in the United States to see our nephew play MLB. Believe what you want. Sam and Steve JR. are our sons. Clemens is lying as did McGuire, Sosa, Raffie,Bonds ad nauseum.
Pettitte did not misunderstand anything. I am not a baseball fanatic. Fanatics believe only what they want to believe. In addtion, my best friend from college is a retired Sports Agent who at one time had over 100 MLB, NBA,and NFL players as clients. The inside info I have heard will be in a book someday.
Posted at 4:00PM on Feb 18th 2008 by SC
16. Pettitte misunderstood
Clinton did not have sexual relations with that girl
Rose did not bet on basball
OJ is innocent
Britney is normal
Martha Stewart told the truth
Enron was agood investment
Posted at 4:00PM on Feb 18th 2008 by Sam
17. Clemens did not take PEDs...not !
Posted at 8:31AM on Feb 19th 2008 by Seth
18. Ah steroids another media creation to divert interest away from other real life issues.Let them take all the steroids they want it will not prevent a pitcher from getting lit up,a batter from striking out or from making all the other bone headed plays that they make.You don't think the commissioner,owners,managers knew about steroid use.Why tamper with a gold mine as long as we suckers keep attending games.Instead of attempting to take your family of 4 to a game where oh about $500.00 might get it done.Take the wife and kids to the park,or a picnic,or bike riding,fishing etc.Now Congress gets involved and even I who stopped attending and watching games still gets my pocket picked with our tax dollars.The solution is plain and simple if you don't like it don't attend.See how fast the sport cleans itself up.We are the victims here remember that.
Posted at 4:43PM on Apr 2nd 2008 by The Original RON