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You apparently need a refresher course in basic communication. Baker wasn't saying that on-base percentage is not a good thing, but rather that some people emphasize it too much. People in the middle of the lineup are usually there because they have the ability to hit home runs, but if they are too concerned about striking out, they will become tentative at the plate. This may produce a few more walks and a few more singles and hence a higher on-base percentage, but fewer home runs, and hence less productivity. A batter's on-base percentage does not tell the whole story, but rather is one factor along with many others, including intangibles, which determine the effectiveness of the player. This is why you are wrong here and were wrong about Juan Pierre. Baker does not deserve to be called a moron, as I'm sure he has more baseball knowledge in his little finger than you will ever have.

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Martin, you had me for awhile until you tried to defend Juan Pierre, at which point, you lost your credibility. Even Ned Coletti has indirectly admitted by his offseason moves that the Pierre signing was a mistake.

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THANK YOU Martin. Now I do not have to type to much as you said it all!!! I am talking about thr Baker thing as I do not know what was said about Pierre. What a jerk that guy is. Why they even show what this no-name thinks is beyond me? By the way, you can keep your condolences, as I am a Reds fan & am fine with giving Baker a shot. You, I am sure I will never hear or see you again. That's the best part of this story.

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Martin hit the nail on the head. Dusty Baker didn't say it clearly, but he was pointing out that it is the first two hitters' jobs to get on base and the middle of the order's job to drive them in. A slow home run hitter on first base is hard to drive in especially when the people trying to do so are the 7,8 and 9 hole hitters.

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Here's something I've never understood: Why do fans always go out of their way to justify idiotic quotes from their favorite players/managers/whatever?

Most athletes aren't that smart, and people like Dusty Baker prove that just because they can get hired as coaches/managers doesn't mean they've gotten any smarter since their playing days.

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Martin and his posse: You are dumb. I'm sorry to turn this into a personal attack, but that's what you all have done to this author, who happens to be correct.

It is NEVER wrong to take a pitch. After letting one go, a batter is that much closer to a walk and another run when the home run does come. You gain information on the pitcher, and you make him throw another, possibly easier to hit, pitch.

Regardless, the main problem with Dusty is his inability to handle young pitchers properly. The Reds should just trade Homer Bailey now.

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Zach- Your arguments are faulty on several levels.

First, you apparently suffer from the same problem as Mr. Brennan, namely an inability to comprehend basic English. Neither Dusty Baker nor I said it was inappropriate to take a pitch, although now that you mention it, it is wrong to take a close pitch with two strikes. Both of us merely said that on-base percentage is not the most important statistic for a middle-of-the-order hitter.

Second, you assume that the pitch taken is a ball. Of course, no one is saying that a batter should swing at bad pitches. But if a taken pitch is a strike, the batter is not closer to a walk, but rather closer to a strike out, and is more at the mercy of the pitcher. If you don't have confidence in your clean-up hitter to make good decisions at the plate, he shouldn't be there in the first place.

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For those of you who think that OBP is only selectively useful and that a guy getting on base is going to "clog up" the basepaths, you need to relearn the rules of baseball.

So let's talk example here: 1st baseman. Slow. Leading off. Hitting in front of speedier OF. Now: do you want him on base, getting in the way of the guy behind him, or do you want him making an out so as to keep those basepaths open? Why not tell me an instance in which you DON'T want someone getting on base and "clogging the basepaths"? You know, "clogging the basepaths" is actually the point of the game. You can't SCORE runs without runners ON BASE.

Really, Dusty has in the past disparaged the walk as being problematic, that it's called "hitting" and not "walking". This is the crux of the dispute. This situations in which a walk in its own right is a bad thing are so few as to be negligible. The approach that leads to walks is one of pitch identification and selection. If you're taking a walk, it's because the pitcher isn't finding the strike zone. You're not getting good pitches to hit. And so you really won't be able to hit well. Really, Dusty comes off as an absolute fool every time he dusts off this comment.

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Martin:

1) Nobody argued that a hitter should take a pitch with 2 strikes. That's retarded

2) Nobody argued that OBP was THE most important stat for a middle-of-the-order hitter. Perhaps you should brush up on your reading comprehension skills.

3) Juan Pierre SUCKS. Everyone knows this.

4) You used the word "intangibles" as one of the things that determine the effectiveness of a player. I can't even begin how to describe how moronic that is. Why don't you go ahead and add "grittiness" and "scrapiness" to your list of things that are important to being good at baseball. Then tell us how awesome David Eckstein is.

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The D-

1. My statement that one should not take a pitch with two strikes was a tongue in cheek response to Zach's earlier statement that "It is NEVER wrong to take a pitch."

2. If Mr. Brennan is not arguing that OBP is the most important stat, what is the point of his post (other than to earn a little money). Dusty Baker acknowledged it's importance, but merely stated that sometimes it is overemphasized, when he stated "On-base percentage, that's fine and dandy. But a lot of times guys get so much into on-base percentage that they cease to swing." Baker wants his middle-of-the-order batters to be aggressive, and, despite Mr. Brennan's assertion to the contrary, there is nothing moronic about that.

3. You and I disagree as to the effectiveness of Juan Pierre. I think that a guy that gets 196 hits in a season (ninth in the majors), steals 64 bases, scores 96 runs, rarely strikes out, rarely hits into double plays, had 22 sacrifice hits, and has tremendous speed to go from 1st to third (or even home) on a single is not a bust. Would it be great if he had a stronger arm in the outfield, more pop in his bat or walked a few times more? Sure. But if he did, he would be paid a lot more than he is now. And with Furcal and Pierre at the top of the order, the odds are, the clean-up hitters are going to have a runner at second when they come to bat.

4. As to "intangibles", I am not referring to "grittiness", but rather to concrete things that do not show up in the stats. For example, with Pierre on first or second base, the pitcher is going to throw a lot more fastballs to the 3, 4, and 5 hitters. Do you think that the hitters appreciate that? The pitcher is also more apt to lose his focus on the batter as he worries about the base runner. The infielders are more apt to commit errors as they are going to rush plays. With his speed, he is better able to break up potential double plays. As noted earlier, he rarely strikes out, making him a good batter to play run and hit. He is great at putting down sacrifice bunts. And in the bottom of the ninth in a tie game, what player would you rather have on the base paths?

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I can't speak for Brennan, but this comment by Dusty Baker has made the news on several sites mostly because of the phrase "clogging up the bases." See Dave S.'s comment for for the obvious reason why this is stupid.

As for Juan Pierre, yes all those things you listed are nice, and I would argue that his single biggest contribution to his team is his speed. But the fact that he hits a lot of singles doesn't matter because the most important thing for ANY hitter is to 1) get on base and 2) not make an out, both of which Pierre sucks at. He has a below-average OBP (although not by much), and consistently is at or near the top of the list in outs.

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Basic baseball logic dictates that you are required to score more runs than your opponent in order to acheive the desired result - a victory. In order to score runs, players will need to occupy the bases. As such, On Base Percentage (OBP) is of the utmost importance towards attaining this goal. To look at this puzzle from a different perspective, you could say that by reaching base safely, a batter has not recorded an out. Since a team is only delegated 3 "outs" per half inning, players who do not accumulate large numbers of "outs" are desireable. You will find that these are players whose OBP totals are above the average. As a final point, Juan Pierre sucks.

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